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	<title>Comments on: Weekend Update</title>
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	<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/weekend-update/</link>
	<description>Chronicling my life with Christ</description>
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		<title>By: Scott Harvey</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/weekend-update/comment-page-1/#comment-1372</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Harvey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/16/weekend-update/#comment-1372</guid>
		<description>Dale, I like the fact that you brought up Martin Luther.  Luther basically chose option A from my list of three options after the rejection (and rather violent at that) of his thesis by the established church in his day.  And that I think is my main point.  There is a tremendous cost to be paid sometimes when you don&#039;t play by the rules.  And, Bible and doctrine aside, it really doesn&#039;t matter who&#039;s right and who&#039;s wrong, there is gonna be a hefty price attached.  At this point in my life, I&#039;m probably not willing to pay much more of a price than being the ardent conservative in the face of political and theological liberalism.  I&#039;ll let other good saints, like yourself and Jason, fight the rest of the battles.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale, I like the fact that you brought up Martin Luther.  Luther basically chose option A from my list of three options after the rejection (and rather violent at that) of his thesis by the established church in his day.  And that I think is my main point.  There is a tremendous cost to be paid sometimes when you don&#8217;t play by the rules.  And, Bible and doctrine aside, it really doesn&#8217;t matter who&#8217;s right and who&#8217;s wrong, there is gonna be a hefty price attached.  At this point in my life, I&#8217;m probably not willing to pay much more of a price than being the ardent conservative in the face of political and theological liberalism.  I&#8217;ll let other good saints, like yourself and Jason, fight the rest of the battles.  <img src='http://www.blog.godfidence.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Dale Sackrider, II</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/weekend-update/comment-page-1/#comment-1363</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Sackrider, II</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2007 03:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/16/weekend-update/#comment-1363</guid>
		<description>Scott -- Fair Tax is the right way to go -- but I think its never gonna happen---

As for Jason and playing by the rules -- In my experience there are many many churches out there that do not require the tithe for membership or ministry, however most of them are non-pentecostal denominations.  My sister currently attends a pentecostal church that not only does not require tithe but preach that it is not biblical and not required.  It takes people standing up to a false doctrine like Jason did to bring about change.  Martin Luther stopped playing by the rules when he nailed his thesis to the church door.  Thank God he did.

As I know it - Jason&#039;s old church required tithe for membership but nothing was said for its ministers prior to Jason&#039;s stand.  I do not believe its splitting hairs to make that distinction as many churches have different rules for its members than they do for their ministers. Jason had expressed that he would not renew his membership once he decided to stop tithing (correct me if that&#039;s wrong Jason).  AND just to be clear - he&#039;s decision to stop tithing did not stop him from regular giving to &#039;said&#039; church... just the mandate of 10% - I don&#039;t know if he gave more or less than that after he abandoned tithing...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott &#8212; Fair Tax is the right way to go &#8212; but I think its never gonna happen&#8212;</p>
<p>As for Jason and playing by the rules &#8212; In my experience there are many many churches out there that do not require the tithe for membership or ministry, however most of them are non-pentecostal denominations.  My sister currently attends a pentecostal church that not only does not require tithe but preach that it is not biblical and not required.  It takes people standing up to a false doctrine like Jason did to bring about change.  Martin Luther stopped playing by the rules when he nailed his thesis to the church door.  Thank God he did.</p>
<p>As I know it &#8211; Jason&#8217;s old church required tithe for membership but nothing was said for its ministers prior to Jason&#8217;s stand.  I do not believe its splitting hairs to make that distinction as many churches have different rules for its members than they do for their ministers. Jason had expressed that he would not renew his membership once he decided to stop tithing (correct me if that&#8217;s wrong Jason).  AND just to be clear &#8211; he&#8217;s decision to stop tithing did not stop him from regular giving to &#8216;said&#8217; church&#8230; just the mandate of 10% &#8211; I don&#8217;t know if he gave more or less than that after he abandoned tithing&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/weekend-update/comment-page-1/#comment-1353</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/16/weekend-update/#comment-1353</guid>
		<description>For the record, if the issue was &quot;We know it isn&#039;t biblical but it is our rule&quot; then I would have been fine.  However I respect the Bible enough to not force it to fit my rules, I know there are some things that you can see both sides on but the tithe isn&#039;t one of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, if the issue was &#8220;We know it isn&#8217;t biblical but it is our rule&#8221; then I would have been fine.  However I respect the Bible enough to not force it to fit my rules, I know there are some things that you can see both sides on but the tithe isn&#8217;t one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Harvey</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/weekend-update/comment-page-1/#comment-1343</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Harvey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:33:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/16/weekend-update/#comment-1343</guid>
		<description>Dale, if you come back and read this, what are your thoughts about the Fair Tax Proposal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale, if you come back and read this, what are your thoughts about the Fair Tax Proposal?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Harvey</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/weekend-update/comment-page-1/#comment-1342</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Harvey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 22:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/16/weekend-update/#comment-1342</guid>
		<description>What I am talking about is the fact that &quot;The Rules&quot; that were in place at Jason&#039;s previous work is that staff and members tithe at a 10% rate.  Doesn&#039;t really matter if you agree with it or not, that was one of the established rules.  You could disagree with the concept of a mandatory 10% tithe, but still tithe at 10% in order to play by the rules.  Jason chose to both disagree conceptually and then put forth the action of not tithing at 10%.  So that is not playing 100% by their rules.  

I&#039;m not defending the rules at Jason&#039;s previous church as 100% perfect.  And I&#039;m not saying Jason was wrong in his actions.  I&#039;m just saying, in MOST American churches one of the rules you gotta play by is the tithe, right or wrong.  

Another rule you gotta play by in most American churches is &quot;attending services on Sunday-rule,&quot; even though that&#039;s not in the Bible either.  I&#039;m willing to bet you would have difficulty being the youth pastor of a church if you only showed up on Saturdays when the building is closed (because that&#039;s how they did it in the New Testament) but the Pastor decided that Youth services were Sunday night.  You would have to be willing to submit to the &quot;Sunday rule&quot; and show up when the Pastor wanted you to, even if in your heart you believed the Sabbath was on Saturday.  

It&#039;s just one of the harsh realities of professional ministry in modern America.  My point was, that if Jason truly wants to get back into some type of church-organized, Pastoral-sanctioned youth ministry, he&#039;s going to have to play by their rules all the way, even the ones he&#039;s not entirely in agreement with.  Because if he doesn&#039;t, if something else, or even the tithe thing becomes a &quot;fall on your sword&quot; issue again, he&#039;s going to be right back in the same situaion he is in right now.  Hence the three choices I outlined. 

I think the good news for Jason, and other believers that have come to the conclusion of grace-giving is that there is an ever growing percentage of grace-giving churches across the the land.  That may present more of an opportunity for an entire group of believers who don&#039;t quite feel they fit in other places.  And that&#039;s a wonderful thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I am talking about is the fact that &#8220;The Rules&#8221; that were in place at Jason&#8217;s previous work is that staff and members tithe at a 10% rate.  Doesn&#8217;t really matter if you agree with it or not, that was one of the established rules.  You could disagree with the concept of a mandatory 10% tithe, but still tithe at 10% in order to play by the rules.  Jason chose to both disagree conceptually and then put forth the action of not tithing at 10%.  So that is not playing 100% by their rules.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not defending the rules at Jason&#8217;s previous church as 100% perfect.  And I&#8217;m not saying Jason was wrong in his actions.  I&#8217;m just saying, in MOST American churches one of the rules you gotta play by is the tithe, right or wrong.  </p>
<p>Another rule you gotta play by in most American churches is &#8220;attending services on Sunday-rule,&#8221; even though that&#8217;s not in the Bible either.  I&#8217;m willing to bet you would have difficulty being the youth pastor of a church if you only showed up on Saturdays when the building is closed (because that&#8217;s how they did it in the New Testament) but the Pastor decided that Youth services were Sunday night.  You would have to be willing to submit to the &#8220;Sunday rule&#8221; and show up when the Pastor wanted you to, even if in your heart you believed the Sabbath was on Saturday.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s just one of the harsh realities of professional ministry in modern America.  My point was, that if Jason truly wants to get back into some type of church-organized, Pastoral-sanctioned youth ministry, he&#8217;s going to have to play by their rules all the way, even the ones he&#8217;s not entirely in agreement with.  Because if he doesn&#8217;t, if something else, or even the tithe thing becomes a &#8220;fall on your sword&#8221; issue again, he&#8217;s going to be right back in the same situaion he is in right now.  Hence the three choices I outlined. </p>
<p>I think the good news for Jason, and other believers that have come to the conclusion of grace-giving is that there is an ever growing percentage of grace-giving churches across the the land.  That may present more of an opportunity for an entire group of believers who don&#8217;t quite feel they fit in other places.  And that&#8217;s a wonderful thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Sackrider, II</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/weekend-update/comment-page-1/#comment-1341</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Sackrider, II</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/16/weekend-update/#comment-1341</guid>
		<description>What is Scott talking about??  You were playing by the rules at your last youth ministry position and the fact that you didn&#039;t 100% agree with their &#039;rules&#039; wasn&#039;t a deal breaker for you -- it was a deal breaker for them.

I&#039;m glad you visited a church and I hope you are able to find a church home soon.  I know you aren&#039;t under any dilution that there is a ministry that 100% agrees with you and certainly aren&#039;t seeking that as a criteria.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is Scott talking about??  You were playing by the rules at your last youth ministry position and the fact that you didn&#8217;t 100% agree with their &#8216;rules&#8217; wasn&#8217;t a deal breaker for you &#8212; it was a deal breaker for them.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad you visited a church and I hope you are able to find a church home soon.  I know you aren&#8217;t under any dilution that there is a ministry that 100% agrees with you and certainly aren&#8217;t seeking that as a criteria.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Harvey</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/weekend-update/comment-page-1/#comment-1337</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Harvey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/04/16/weekend-update/#comment-1337</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m beginning to become a big fan of the Fair Tax proposal.  I&#039;ve been reading up on it, and I think it&#039;s quite revolutionary.  I would love to see something like this proposal go through, but I fear it would take a revolution on the part of the common American people.  Too many elitist politicians, with their hands too deep into the pockets of a far too bloated beaurocracy.  

The fair tax proposal would uttler decimate the money and power base of the entire &quot;tax industry,&quot; which I of course think would be wonderful, but they&#039;re not going to give that up without a MAJOR fight. 

2nd - you spoke about longing for youth ministry again.  I find that to be an interesting twist.  To get into &quot;the system,&quot; whatever system that may be, you have to learn to play by the rules of said system, which is something I know you have NEVER been into doing.  You also have to be very careful about what you are willing to fall on your sword about.  And I simply don&#039;t know if you are at the point in life yet, where nobility for the sake of personal conscience takes a back seat to flexibility and the rule of love.  

Unless you are either A) willing to start your own work somewhere, or B) willing to play by someone else&#039;s rules, even if you don&#039;t 100% agree, or C) find a work that 100% lines up with you and your current philosophy of Christian conduct and ministry (and that is assuming your current philosophies NEVER change), then I&#039;m not sure how realistic it would be to move back into youth ministry in an established church. 

However you have already mentioned how having a critical spirit lends itself to pre-judging some churches you&#039;ve recently visited.  I would challenge you to find out what is at the root of your current attitude, and kill it.  I think at one time or another, all of us involved in church ministry have to fight against a critical spirit (I know I have), and killing that attitude at its root will certainly help you be more successful on your journey.  

I will end this by saying regarless of the outcome of your search, you have your daughter to think of first and foremost.  And with all the evil things that exist in the world that are gunning for her soul, mind and body, SHE deserves a  church family, even if YOU have issues about it.  There is something protective about group fellowship and accountability, and you know I&#039;ve NEVER been a huge fan of the lone ranger Christian mentality.  Besides the moment you became a dad you lost the right to be a lone ranger any more.  All this may be preaching to the choir at this point, because it does sound like you are searching for a new home, and I applaud that search.  I just encourage you to complete it quickly, and to search with your ear listening for the whispers of the Holy Spirit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m beginning to become a big fan of the Fair Tax proposal.  I&#8217;ve been reading up on it, and I think it&#8217;s quite revolutionary.  I would love to see something like this proposal go through, but I fear it would take a revolution on the part of the common American people.  Too many elitist politicians, with their hands too deep into the pockets of a far too bloated beaurocracy.  </p>
<p>The fair tax proposal would uttler decimate the money and power base of the entire &#8220;tax industry,&#8221; which I of course think would be wonderful, but they&#8217;re not going to give that up without a MAJOR fight. </p>
<p>2nd &#8211; you spoke about longing for youth ministry again.  I find that to be an interesting twist.  To get into &#8220;the system,&#8221; whatever system that may be, you have to learn to play by the rules of said system, which is something I know you have NEVER been into doing.  You also have to be very careful about what you are willing to fall on your sword about.  And I simply don&#8217;t know if you are at the point in life yet, where nobility for the sake of personal conscience takes a back seat to flexibility and the rule of love.  </p>
<p>Unless you are either A) willing to start your own work somewhere, or B) willing to play by someone else&#8217;s rules, even if you don&#8217;t 100% agree, or C) find a work that 100% lines up with you and your current philosophy of Christian conduct and ministry (and that is assuming your current philosophies NEVER change), then I&#8217;m not sure how realistic it would be to move back into youth ministry in an established church. </p>
<p>However you have already mentioned how having a critical spirit lends itself to pre-judging some churches you&#8217;ve recently visited.  I would challenge you to find out what is at the root of your current attitude, and kill it.  I think at one time or another, all of us involved in church ministry have to fight against a critical spirit (I know I have), and killing that attitude at its root will certainly help you be more successful on your journey.  </p>
<p>I will end this by saying regarless of the outcome of your search, you have your daughter to think of first and foremost.  And with all the evil things that exist in the world that are gunning for her soul, mind and body, SHE deserves a  church family, even if YOU have issues about it.  There is something protective about group fellowship and accountability, and you know I&#8217;ve NEVER been a huge fan of the lone ranger Christian mentality.  Besides the moment you became a dad you lost the right to be a lone ranger any more.  All this may be preaching to the choir at this point, because it does sound like you are searching for a new home, and I applaud that search.  I just encourage you to complete it quickly, and to search with your ear listening for the whispers of the Holy Spirit.</p>
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