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	<title>Comments on: House Church Clarification</title>
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	<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/house-church-clarification/</link>
	<description>Chronicling my life with Christ</description>
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		<title>By: Sarah T</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/house-church-clarification/comment-page-1/#comment-2751</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/15/house-church-clarification/#comment-2751</guid>
		<description>Hi, our names are Frank and Sarah and we live in Grove City Ohio. We are intereseted in making connections in our area with others involved in the HC movement. I found you on House2House and was trying to figure out a way to get in touch so I decided to start here. We have been out of IC for 2 years now and have been on a pretty interesting spiritual journey during that time. We completed Pagan Christianity about 6 months back and it was really and eye opener for us. Let us know if you ever have time to chat about what&#039;s going on in our area.   Grace and Peace,          Frank and Sarah</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, our names are Frank and Sarah and we live in Grove City Ohio. We are intereseted in making connections in our area with others involved in the HC movement. I found you on House2House and was trying to figure out a way to get in touch so I decided to start here. We have been out of IC for 2 years now and have been on a pretty interesting spiritual journey during that time. We completed Pagan Christianity about 6 months back and it was really and eye opener for us. Let us know if you ever have time to chat about what&#8217;s going on in our area.   Grace and Peace,          Frank and Sarah</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Winstead</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/house-church-clarification/comment-page-1/#comment-2529</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Winstead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 23:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/15/house-church-clarification/#comment-2529</guid>
		<description>Agreed that spiritual authority needs to be defined before the answer. Answering it only leads to misunderstanding. 

Spiritual authority is badly misunderstood in the modern church. Authority is mistaken for &quot;being in charge&quot; and being responsible for behavior, etc. Or it means &quot;expert&quot;, or who is endowed with the &quot;power&quot; in a church. That trivializes what the bible means. 

The word authority comes from the word author. The Greek word authority is tied in the bible tightly to the word author, more so than today. The authority is not to be a ruler (that is the role of Jesus and the Holy Spirit), but rather a kind of &quot;father&quot; to others under his authority. The authority is about creating in his charges, much like an author creates his text.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed that spiritual authority needs to be defined before the answer. Answering it only leads to misunderstanding. </p>
<p>Spiritual authority is badly misunderstood in the modern church. Authority is mistaken for &#8220;being in charge&#8221; and being responsible for behavior, etc. Or it means &#8220;expert&#8221;, or who is endowed with the &#8220;power&#8221; in a church. That trivializes what the bible means. </p>
<p>The word authority comes from the word author. The Greek word authority is tied in the bible tightly to the word author, more so than today. The authority is not to be a ruler (that is the role of Jesus and the Holy Spirit), but rather a kind of &#8220;father&#8221; to others under his authority. The authority is about creating in his charges, much like an author creates his text.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Winstead</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/house-church-clarification/comment-page-1/#comment-2528</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Winstead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 23:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/15/house-church-clarification/#comment-2528</guid>
		<description>Late to join the conversation but several points to make: 

As for &quot;big church quality&quot; -- quality of what? Numerous studies have shown that bigger churches have higher quality only when it comes to &quot;services&quot;.  Willow Creek has gone into &quot;quality programs&quot; and ministries, and recently admitted &quot;we were wrong&quot;.  The elements that lead to quality discipleship, the central item we are to be about, can be done in smaller more easily. 

Years ago, a student of kingdom growth (as opposed to church growth) showed that there was really 8 elements leading to &#039;quality&#039; growth. 7 of 8 were done better in smaller settings (&#039;worship quality&#039; -- performance). 

More studies show the smaller the church, the more likely the numerical growth. In other words, 2 churches of 500 will have more growth combined than one of 1000, 5 churches of 100 more than one church of 500, 2 churches of 50 more than a church of 100, etc. The fastest growing areas for the kingdom in the world are currently South America, Africa, and Asia. The dominant church form in these areas are house churches. 

House churches provide more growth opportunity, more connection to God (no clergy in the way), and faster leadership growth. (when they aren&#039;t trying to be small versions of traditional churches, anyway).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Late to join the conversation but several points to make: </p>
<p>As for &#8220;big church quality&#8221; &#8212; quality of what? Numerous studies have shown that bigger churches have higher quality only when it comes to &#8220;services&#8221;.  Willow Creek has gone into &#8220;quality programs&#8221; and ministries, and recently admitted &#8220;we were wrong&#8221;.  The elements that lead to quality discipleship, the central item we are to be about, can be done in smaller more easily. </p>
<p>Years ago, a student of kingdom growth (as opposed to church growth) showed that there was really 8 elements leading to &#8216;quality&#8217; growth. 7 of 8 were done better in smaller settings (&#8216;worship quality&#8217; &#8212; performance). </p>
<p>More studies show the smaller the church, the more likely the numerical growth. In other words, 2 churches of 500 will have more growth combined than one of 1000, 5 churches of 100 more than one church of 500, 2 churches of 50 more than a church of 100, etc. The fastest growing areas for the kingdom in the world are currently South America, Africa, and Asia. The dominant church form in these areas are house churches. </p>
<p>House churches provide more growth opportunity, more connection to God (no clergy in the way), and faster leadership growth. (when they aren&#8217;t trying to be small versions of traditional churches, anyway).</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Harvey</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/house-church-clarification/comment-page-1/#comment-2523</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Harvey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:04:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/15/house-church-clarification/#comment-2523</guid>
		<description>Refer back to the dictionary definition of &quot;Straw Man.&quot;  My statement is not full of straw men, but contains my direct observations and opinions, and I don&#039;t pretend that they are anything other than that.  And certainly my concerns must have some validity.  Even Frank Viola, who you quote in another post, references them:  

&quot;The Disgruntled Malcontent Society. Comprised of ex-church derelicts and recycled Christians, these groups happily assemble to lick their wounds and slam the &quot;spiritually abusive&quot; institutional church. - Frank Viola&quot;

And if I personally know individuals who are involved in the house church concept to be &quot;seeker-relevant and cool&quot; (not you or your group), and I do, then the validity of my concern stands even if it&#039;s just for those particular believers.  

In balance, I love the concept of home meetings for believers.  I guess we just have differing opinions on what that balance should look like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Refer back to the dictionary definition of &#8220;Straw Man.&#8221;  My statement is not full of straw men, but contains my direct observations and opinions, and I don&#8217;t pretend that they are anything other than that.  And certainly my concerns must have some validity.  Even Frank Viola, who you quote in another post, references them:  </p>
<p>&#8220;The Disgruntled Malcontent Society. Comprised of ex-church derelicts and recycled Christians, these groups happily assemble to lick their wounds and slam the &#8220;spiritually abusive&#8221; institutional church. &#8211; Frank Viola&#8221;</p>
<p>And if I personally know individuals who are involved in the house church concept to be &#8220;seeker-relevant and cool&#8221; (not you or your group), and I do, then the validity of my concern stands even if it&#8217;s just for those particular believers.  </p>
<p>In balance, I love the concept of home meetings for believers.  I guess we just have differing opinions on what that balance should look like.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/house-church-clarification/comment-page-1/#comment-2516</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/15/house-church-clarification/#comment-2516</guid>
		<description>You would first have to define spiritual authority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You would first have to define spiritual authority.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/house-church-clarification/comment-page-1/#comment-2515</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/15/house-church-clarification/#comment-2515</guid>
		<description>Ok.

Then I&#039;ll move from Devil&#039;s advocate to just plain curious.  Where is the spiritual authority?  The apostle or the pastor?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok.</p>
<p>Then I&#8217;ll move from Devil&#8217;s advocate to just plain curious.  Where is the spiritual authority?  The apostle or the pastor?</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/house-church-clarification/comment-page-1/#comment-2514</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/15/house-church-clarification/#comment-2514</guid>
		<description>Steve,
    I have already addressed the growth issue in a previous post, you begin a new house church.  The idea of the house church movement isn&#039;t to grow into a larger church but to create a network of house churches that work within the community.  Think of it more like cell groups without the overhead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,<br />
    I have already addressed the growth issue in a previous post, you begin a new house church.  The idea of the house church movement isn&#8217;t to grow into a larger church but to create a network of house churches that work within the community.  Think of it more like cell groups without the overhead.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/house-church-clarification/comment-page-1/#comment-2512</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/15/house-church-clarification/#comment-2512</guid>
		<description>Ok, I&#039;m going to play devil&#039;s advocate.  I agree with Scott.... sort of.... (Ugh I can&#039;t believe I&#039;m saying this... :) )

You have to admit Jason that we&#039;ve all seen the here today gone tomorrow store front churchs.  Geez, half the pastors of those churches probably did a semester with us in College.  The thing is they are so sigmatized with inconsistency and ineffectivness from all the other guys who aren&#039;t doing it right.

This is were I agree with Scott.  The medium ground where you have a small (100 - 300) person church that is a lighthouse in a community of consistency and stability for people to turn to.  If have found that Smaller churches seem to be more effective in the community because they don&#039;t have that mega church feel but still have the worker poll to get things done in the community.

Now I&#039;ll but my own spin.  What about growth? Everything that is alive must being growing.  Eventually a house church will get too big for the house and need a store front.  Eventual the storefront will get to big and ..... You get the point.  If you aren&#039;t growing how can you see your meeting the needs of the lost?

I&#039;m not slamming on anybody just a thought to add to the mix.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I&#8217;m going to play devil&#8217;s advocate.  I agree with Scott&#8230;. sort of&#8230;. (Ugh I can&#8217;t believe I&#8217;m saying this&#8230; <img src='http://www.blog.godfidence.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
<p>You have to admit Jason that we&#8217;ve all seen the here today gone tomorrow store front churchs.  Geez, half the pastors of those churches probably did a semester with us in College.  The thing is they are so sigmatized with inconsistency and ineffectivness from all the other guys who aren&#8217;t doing it right.</p>
<p>This is were I agree with Scott.  The medium ground where you have a small (100 &#8211; 300) person church that is a lighthouse in a community of consistency and stability for people to turn to.  If have found that Smaller churches seem to be more effective in the community because they don&#8217;t have that mega church feel but still have the worker poll to get things done in the community.</p>
<p>Now I&#8217;ll but my own spin.  What about growth? Everything that is alive must being growing.  Eventually a house church will get too big for the house and need a store front.  Eventual the storefront will get to big and &#8230;.. You get the point.  If you aren&#8217;t growing how can you see your meeting the needs of the lost?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not slamming on anybody just a thought to add to the mix.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/house-church-clarification/comment-page-1/#comment-2509</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/15/house-church-clarification/#comment-2509</guid>
		<description>Scott,
     Your post is full of straw men, beginning with your concerns for the spirit and attitude these churches are starting from.  While I am sure there are some that were formed that way, when you begin to look into the main people in the movement today they simply believe it is the better and more biblical way to do it.
      No one has talked about being &quot;seeker-relevant and cool,&quot; that isn&#039;t the goal</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott,<br />
     Your post is full of straw men, beginning with your concerns for the spirit and attitude these churches are starting from.  While I am sure there are some that were formed that way, when you begin to look into the main people in the movement today they simply believe it is the better and more biblical way to do it.<br />
      No one has talked about being &#8220;seeker-relevant and cool,&#8221; that isn&#8217;t the goal</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Harvey</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/house-church-clarification/comment-page-1/#comment-2508</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Harvey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.godfidence.org/2007/10/15/house-church-clarification/#comment-2508</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m looking for a marriage of the best of both worlds.  Big church quality and spiritual authority, along with small group relationships and accountability.  Truth be told, I think that most folks in the small group movement are looking for the same thing, and several local bodies are proving to be quite successful at both.  

My most nagging concerns regarding the current modern-American rendition of &quot;house churches&quot; is the spirit and attitude out of which they are often being birthed (disgruntled or jaded believers) and the lack of spiritual authority that so often accompanies these renegade groups.  In China, out of necessity, the church has had to exist in the house church model, and yet it does so under the spiritual authority of a 5-fold ministry gift as outlined in Scripture.  

And while it&#039;s not the be-all, end-all of the Church&#039;s existence, let us not discount the spiritual, economic and social ramifications of taking a parcel of land and building property to the glory of God and for His purposes.  There is a lot to be said for creating these physical &quot;beachheads&quot; in the middle of a Godless society.  And many modern local bodies are being a lot smarter about what they build and why - creating more multi-purpose spaces for class rooms, or training, or worship gatherings.  It is awesome to witness.  Why does it always seem like post-modernist, in an effort to seem seeker-relevant and cool, are so quick to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m looking for a marriage of the best of both worlds.  Big church quality and spiritual authority, along with small group relationships and accountability.  Truth be told, I think that most folks in the small group movement are looking for the same thing, and several local bodies are proving to be quite successful at both.  </p>
<p>My most nagging concerns regarding the current modern-American rendition of &#8220;house churches&#8221; is the spirit and attitude out of which they are often being birthed (disgruntled or jaded believers) and the lack of spiritual authority that so often accompanies these renegade groups.  In China, out of necessity, the church has had to exist in the house church model, and yet it does so under the spiritual authority of a 5-fold ministry gift as outlined in Scripture.  </p>
<p>And while it&#8217;s not the be-all, end-all of the Church&#8217;s existence, let us not discount the spiritual, economic and social ramifications of taking a parcel of land and building property to the glory of God and for His purposes.  There is a lot to be said for creating these physical &#8220;beachheads&#8221; in the middle of a Godless society.  And many modern local bodies are being a lot smarter about what they build and why &#8211; creating more multi-purpose spaces for class rooms, or training, or worship gatherings.  It is awesome to witness.  Why does it always seem like post-modernist, in an effort to seem seeker-relevant and cool, are so quick to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater?</p>
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